Talk:Xsian
((X-POSTED!?!!1))0
- Also, from the guy who changed the Xsian article from "this is China/Korea/Japan" to something that works in-context. Go figure. --Scen 11:35, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- Which I don't agree with. --Xstryker 15:21, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- Well, nobody had come up with an explanation that (a) was in context, or (b) made sense. The article, as I re-wrote it, allows the story to keep this bizarre orientalist pan-culture called "Xsian," and gives it some realistic cohesion other than to just say "these two terms are Asian in the real world, therefore in Kupopolis they are Xsian because I said." Especially when you are dealing with languages like Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian languages, to suggest they all have common liguistic roots is more than a little silly -- depending on which part of South or Southeast Asia you're talking about, you have two, sometimes three distinct linguistic families in the region. And Japanese and Chinese aren't related to each other at all, except for with the exchange of written language with the spread of Buddhism. And "Chinese" as a language is fragmented into several linguistically distinct dialects, which are (as paralleled in the Xsian article) only unified by way of common writing system. So, you can agree with it or not, but from a realistic and story-context perspective it works and accomplishes what we need it to accomplish. It certainly was not sufficient to leave "xsian = azns" as a permanent Kupopolis reference in the wiki. Given that we write pages and pages and pages about giant robots and lasers, that smacks of laziness, and I think the story is a little better off with something of substance to explain the Xsian culture and language in context. --Scen 15:52, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- What you created is fine. What you removed I happen to think belongs here on the Discussion page. We can put useful OOC info here. Or it could be put at the bottom of the page in a Meta section, either way works. I just don't like the idea that the wiki should be free of meta-information like what we based things on or named them after. --Xstryker 19:32, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- Honestly? I don't think it belongs anywhere on the wiki. Because it's really, really not helpful. I made this argument with Mike a little earlier on IM... I said to him, if you took a complete newcomer to Kupopolis, and told him to play through 7th saga and then write a post set in Kupopolis' Ticondera, I'd lay odds that 90% of the post this person would turn out would be completely inaccurate and not fit in with the larger Kupopolis story. The same goes for telling people things like "Eblan = Japan," or "Tasnica = USA" -- and we don't even need a hypothetical there because we've seen examples of it during Iron Writer, where our guest writers have turned out stories that, while of good writing quality, don't mesh well with Kupopolis because of the burdensome real world analogues we give them so they don't have to dig very deeply into existing story material. This is a very different case than appropriating someone else's intellectual property, and I think that, rather than providing a meta reference that links Kupopolis to real-world cultures, we as writers should be striving to make our assets stand on their own and not rely on analogues. Besides which, any analogue is self-evident when you look at the list of "Xsian terms" on this page. To say it any more obliquely just cheapens Xsian as a story element and betrays the work that Travis has done to actually give it some development and character, much in the same way that assuming Tasnica = America, or Tasnican Culture = Germanic/Viking stuff ill-serves one of the most well-developed and widely used national assets in the story universe. It is simply not needed. --Scen 19:52, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- (too long, clanky!) Travis has only done work with Eblan, as I recall, so he can handle it his way when he writes the Eblan article. What Xsian words have been created that weren't taken directly from some real-world asian language? If a new writer threw in some Japanese word and called it an Xsian word, would he be mistaken? Please remember this is an article about the language not the empire. --Xstryker 09:24, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
- Firstly, Gabe's also done work in Fabul, which should not be overlooked because, per Gabe's writings, Fabul uses heavy Chinese influence, and makes up one of the three major portions of the old Xsian empire. Second, I know it's an article about the language. I don't think the fact that this is an article about language makes any of what I've said off-target at all. --Scen 12:08, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
- We have never agreed on what is or isn't off-target. Pretty much nothing you said convinces me that the Xsian language wouldn't be assumed to include almost any word that is Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indonesian, Vietnamese, Thai, or Hmong if a given author wanted it to. You are extrapolating a meta fact about a language to the entire culture. --Xstryker 09:59, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- Firstly, Gabe's also done work in Fabul, which should not be overlooked because, per Gabe's writings, Fabul uses heavy Chinese influence, and makes up one of the three major portions of the old Xsian empire. Second, I know it's an article about the language. I don't think the fact that this is an article about language makes any of what I've said off-target at all. --Scen 12:08, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
- (too long, clanky!) Travis has only done work with Eblan, as I recall, so he can handle it his way when he writes the Eblan article. What Xsian words have been created that weren't taken directly from some real-world asian language? If a new writer threw in some Japanese word and called it an Xsian word, would he be mistaken? Please remember this is an article about the language not the empire. --Xstryker 09:24, 29 August 2006 (CDT)
- Honestly? I don't think it belongs anywhere on the wiki. Because it's really, really not helpful. I made this argument with Mike a little earlier on IM... I said to him, if you took a complete newcomer to Kupopolis, and told him to play through 7th saga and then write a post set in Kupopolis' Ticondera, I'd lay odds that 90% of the post this person would turn out would be completely inaccurate and not fit in with the larger Kupopolis story. The same goes for telling people things like "Eblan = Japan," or "Tasnica = USA" -- and we don't even need a hypothetical there because we've seen examples of it during Iron Writer, where our guest writers have turned out stories that, while of good writing quality, don't mesh well with Kupopolis because of the burdensome real world analogues we give them so they don't have to dig very deeply into existing story material. This is a very different case than appropriating someone else's intellectual property, and I think that, rather than providing a meta reference that links Kupopolis to real-world cultures, we as writers should be striving to make our assets stand on their own and not rely on analogues. Besides which, any analogue is self-evident when you look at the list of "Xsian terms" on this page. To say it any more obliquely just cheapens Xsian as a story element and betrays the work that Travis has done to actually give it some development and character, much in the same way that assuming Tasnica = America, or Tasnican Culture = Germanic/Viking stuff ill-serves one of the most well-developed and widely used national assets in the story universe. It is simply not needed. --Scen 19:52, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- What you created is fine. What you removed I happen to think belongs here on the Discussion page. We can put useful OOC info here. Or it could be put at the bottom of the page in a Meta section, either way works. I just don't like the idea that the wiki should be free of meta-information like what we based things on or named them after. --Xstryker 19:32, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- As a serious re: to Adam's above... by way of an out-of-context explanation: not all of the languages you've listed even belong to the same linguistic family, and very few of them have ties to more than two of the others. Japanese, Chinese and Korean are only linked by way of exchanged written languages, as paralleled in the Xsian article.
- In-context explanation: as conceived, the Xsian Empire comprised only the territories of Eblan, Fabul and Mysidia, and of those only Chinese and Japanese influences were relied on. I'm not sure where Agart got shoved into the mix, but none of the Three Kingdoms of Xsia even drifted near to using Korean, Indonesian, Vietnamese, Thai or Hmong influences. To assume otherwise is to go against what Trav, Gabe and I intended. --Scen 19:00, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- Wow. You disincluded me from Xsia. I'll remember that. Sorry for inviting myself to the party there. No prob, I'll come up with something else. --Xstryker 22:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- No, I didn't, but I swear I could have predicted that reaction. --Scen 22:25, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- Agart is drawn from a mix of southeast asian and south asian influences. The backstory I had planned for it is that it was conquered by the Xsian empire for a sizeable period of time, so that it has a mix of Xsian and non-Xsian characteristics. And likewise, it left it's own impression on its conquerors, and there was a certain degree of culture-meld. --Xstryker 22:46, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- No, I didn't, but I swear I could have predicted that reaction. --Scen 22:25, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- Wow. You disincluded me from Xsia. I'll remember that. Sorry for inviting myself to the party there. No prob, I'll come up with something else. --Xstryker 22:07, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
- Christ do I need to seperate you two?? IF YOU DON'T SETTLE DOWN RIGHT NOW I SWEAR TO GOD I'LL PULL THIS WIKI OVER!!--Michael 23:31, 1 September 2006 (CDT)
I wonder: for the purposes of this wiki, should we really be describing certain story elements according to their real-world equivalents? It kinda strikes me as an OOC aside in this entry, and if you remove the stuff about "Korean, Japanese," etc., I think people would still get the idea from the story elements you've listed below. Just a thought. Because the wiki must stay PURE!!! --Nick 08:22, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
- "Because the wiki must stay PURE!!!" qft --Scen 08:26, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
- You could put it in a Meta section at the bottom. --Xstryker 12:39, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
- Because the wiki must stay USEFUL!!! --Xstryker 12:40, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
- I like that idea, the Meta section at the bottom. Travis? --Nick 13:22, 7 August 2006 (CDT)
- Okay, I really don't like the meta in a story article. I'm going to extricate the OOC references. The wiki can be useful without breaking character. --Scen 17:59, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- So what you're saying is Bekkler actually does like poopies, in character? Terrorfying!! --JD 18:04, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- Okay, I really don't like the meta in a story article. I'm going to extricate the OOC references. The wiki can be useful without breaking character. --Scen 17:59, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
In all seriousness I don't really think that the references to korean and japanese really fit, either. Of course, it's Travis' article. So while I'd rather those references be pulled altogether (FOR THE GOOD OF THE WIKI) I think it's up to him. Unless we all can get together and decide what the "rules" are regarding references like that. --JD 18:10, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
WOW THIS MUST BE AN IMPORTANT SUBJECT I CANT STOP POSTING ABOUT IT. I think this could use some straightening up: "but we tend to play around whoever we want" because I don't really know what it means. And since I totally read at a third grade level I probably know what I'm talking about. No shit, srsly. --JD 18:12, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- ... wtf --Scen 18:15, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- There is a sentence in the article which makes absolutely no sense. It makes no sense because this part of it: "but we tend to play around whoever we want" makes absolutely no sense. I posit that this sentence could be cleaned up a little, possibly such that it actually makes sense. Understand? --JD 21:56, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- Okay. Here's my two cents on OOC references in serious Wiki articles: Don't use them.
- Yes, it's easy to point at the Bekkler redirect-hoe-down and call me a hypocrite -- but in my defense it was really funny (shit, i still can't stop laughing -- I LIKE POOPIES), and also it's BEKKLER. Playing around with the Wiki media (without breaking anything) seemed to fit Bekkler, and so that's what I did.
- Yeah, ouch, my sides! Poopies. Wow, now I typed it! HA HA HA! --Xstryker 18:47, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- But in terms of this discussion, it's apples vs. oranges. And the oranges -- I think we all know -- always win. Why? Because they're fucking cheaters. Goddamn oranges.
- In terms of the Xsian profile, and others like it, I personally think that it's not exactly putting our best face forward to be satisfied with leaving references like that in a wiki article. It would be like leaving Gate's article as "Chrono Trigger," with no explanation or context. If that's what we're going to start doing, why bother with the Wiki?
- I happen to suspect that when Travis put up the Xsian article with real-world references to China and Japan, it was as a placeholder. (granted, I'm not Travis so I can't say, but that's my hunch) And we have a lot of placeholders up now because we've really just barely scratched the surface of filling up this wiki with helpful and pertinent information. So, as a placeholder this article was fine, but I raised an eyebrow a little bit when I noticed that the meta references were no just holding places -- they were picking out drapes, bringing in boxes filled with their clothes and shit, and inviting their friends over for a summer bbq.
- So, I added some content that tries to put this thing we call "Xsian" into something resembling an in-story context. If it's wrong, and Travis says it's wrong, I'll be fine with going back to using a placeholder. But as long as we're talking about what the rules should be regarding OOC in a permanent Wiki article like this... let's keep Meta in the Meta portal. ... hey, wasn't somebody supposed to clean up all the portals?... ohh... ... that was my job!! --Scen 18:26, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- As always, just assume I think the opposite of whatever Matt thinks. --Xstryker 18:47, 14 August 2006 (CDT)
- Regardless, the meta section here is redundant, because it's pretty freaking obvious what the inspiration is for all things Xsian. It just doesn't need to be said.--Nick 08:40, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
- Also, I changed the article already. :) --Scen 10:27, 15 August 2006 (CDT)
I'm just glad you guys know not to take the grammar and spelling in my stuff as seriouesly as this article. geeze. --Michael 20:42, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
- GET THEE BEHIND ME YOU NON-SPELLING HEATHEN! GRAMMAR IS SERIOUS BIZNESS --Aurora 21:11, 28 August 2006 (CDT)
