Talk:Kupopolis (city)

No god can enter Kupopolis? Chrystalis sort of lived there for a while. Also, Kupopolis is only the physical center of the Web. The metaphysical center is the Place Which is No More. --Aurora 05:16, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

These days, at least according to the cosmology agreed on by the most people, I think that Source is the metaphysical center of the web. --JD 17:26, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Yeah, its a little different then what you remembered, we generally adopt a more ontological approach. I always saw the Place Which Is No More as some sort of intangible place outside of existence (like in some ontological arguments the place where god is before there was a god), and Source being a gateway to that place. So Jerry pretty much is right when he says Source is metaphysical center, since its the last place where things have any semblance to physicality. --Michael 17:45, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Well, my 2¢:

"Source", as a region in Aryth, is likely a derivation from my early declaration (as part of the original Web Dimensional Theory writeup that brought in space travel) that Aryth, as a dimension, was the Web's "Source" dimension, where all the mana-based strands spread out from (which was initially an explanation why you couldn't get there via space travel, because all the strand-flows were exiting the Dimension, but I'm not sure what the consensus is on that now). Assuming this is the case, Source is then just the... well, source of the Web's rivers of Mana (ley lines, strands, whatever nomenclature you prefer).

However, the Place That Is No More has a history in the story of having no small amount of metaphysical importance -- and it is more or less Aurora's province. I don't think it's so much intangible as simply a step removed from the physical realm of the Kupopolis storyline.

Regardless, I think nobody is really wrong here. Source is Source, the Place Which Is No More is the Place Which Is No More, and "center" of the universe is where ever I happen to be standing at a given point in time or space. --Scen 20:01, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Works for me. Another way I always see APWINM is as a place where human beings can't percieve; to steal that string threory scientst's analogy, its like being a fish trying to figure out what is beyond the pond. --Michael 22:58, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

Heh, a lot of things are "a little different than I remember". Whatever, guys. It's yours, I'm shutting the hell up from now on. --Aurora 23:44, 30 September 2006 (CDT)

... Okay. I've been getting this from both sides for a little bit now. I've got a thrumming headache and here's what I have to say: everybody just needs to learn to share.

She's probably not going to say so on either the Wiki, or the main Kupop boards, but Aurora is hurt and a little miffed by a lot of what's gone on since she came back. And it all goes back to our Cardinal Rule for Interactive Stories: "Respect Other Writers." All this talk about the PWINM is hurtful to Aurora because it's the crux of what she wrote about. When Aurora left, a lot of her stuff became Community Property in the Kupopolis universe, but a significant amount of it was stashed away in the PWINM. Now she's come back, and a lot of what used to be hers is now the province of other writers -- she's come to grips with the fact that she's not ever going to get back 100% of what she contributed to the story universe. But there are some things that are essential to what she does still have, and which are dear to her, and the PWINM is one of them. At least half of the ickiness of this discussion thread is due to that.

I say all of that because I know Aurora won't, and because I really don't want anymore of this childish and increasingly personal spat-fest to continue. As flaming as we've gotten in the past, with our word-count debates and all of that, I don't think it has ever reached the level of trouncing upon another writer's story assets, or their rights to the same. And in the time since Aurora's come back I think we've inadvertantly caused her no small amount of anguish simply out of nothing more than force-of-habit because we've gone so long on the assumption that certain things are public property.

... Okay, the headache is getting worse. I need to eat/drink/kill something now. Just play nice. Please? If not for me, do it for the childrens. --Scen 00:31, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

Okay... let me just quickly add that I'm not singling anybody out in this. This is addressed to the larger Kupop community. I think we all need... fuck, I dunno what we all need. Can we just somehow manage to talk about the story universe without saying things that are potentially patronizing/feeling-hurting? And when feelings are hurt, can we handle it in a more nice-and-diplomatic fashion? PLZ!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?? And now I go off to murder people. --Scen 00:35, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

I'm not sure what "childish and increasingly personal spaz-fest" you're talking about, Matt. And if Aurora feels "patronized" or her feelings are hurt, then I'm sorry because something as trivial as an interactive story shouldn't cause that sort of thing. They're supposed to be fun, and when they stop being fun and start being obnoxious, it's time to take a step back. Which is why I've taken so many steps back from this one in particular.

As far as The Place Which Is No More, or any of Aurora's other story assets for that matter, are concerned, she is perfectly welcome to say, do and write whatever she wants. Nobody here is trying to tell Aurora what she can and can not do with the place which is no more. I know that wasn't my intention, and I seriously doubt it was Mike's either. For my part, I wasn't trying to say that the place which is no more is different, or that she's limited in the way she writes about it. I was saying that her saying it's "the metaphysical center of kupop" doesn't make it so.

I think the problem, if there is a problem, is making broad statements about something which potentially effects every other writer's 'assets.' If, in one of her stories, one of her characters says or thinks "wow, the place which is no more is totally the metaphysical center of the web" that's awesome, and if anyone tells her she can't do that they are a dick. Same goes for you if one of your characters (or a fictional character-as-mouthpiece writing an article in-character like the kupopolis (city) article. It's a completely different thing for a writer, outside of the story, to say "The place which is no more is the metaphysical center of the universe." Because, guess what? Not everyone thinks that, and one person saying it is will not make it so.

Respect is a two way street, is what I'm saying. And it is important for everyone to respect everyone else. --JD 02:38, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

p.s. it is saturday night, and I have been drinking. A lot. I find walking difficult. Time to go add some nonsense to the wiki! --JD 02:39, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

Here is my two cents okay here goes how can the metaphysical world have a center and if it does how could anyone agree on what it is. In other words, can we please leave this debate for in-story philosophers to debate as a question of the ages? Do we know where the physical center of the real universe is, and if not, wouldn't the metaphysical center be even tougher to pinpoint? For example, in-story, any worshipper of the Web Pantheon would probably say, yes, The Place Which Ain't. Many scientists, mages, atheists, and Narcolics might say "The Source", believing it ground-zero for the Creation (perhaps). And what about Spekkians? Would they point to the End of Time (just spekkulating here!)? Why is there a right or a wrong answer? --Xstryker 17:16, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

Because I have an extremely grandiose plot going at the moment that hinges on it being the center of the metaphysical world. Because that's the way I always envisioned it, and that's how I wrote it in the past. Because it was never meant to be a euphemism for death, and maybe that's my own fault for not writing it well enough when I was fourteen. It's as real as Esper or Light or Crystal. It's a really weird ass nebulous place, but it's real.

There ultimately are right and wrong answers to philosophical questions, at least in the Kupopoverse (for instance, atheists? are wrong). The thing is, no one knows who's right, and who's wrong (except UL, but He knows Everything and has a great poker face). PWINM has about 8 billion different names and no one knows what the hell it is except the Gods, because they live there. And me, 'cause I made it and stuff. But it is nebulous enough that everyone can be right about it. It's really fuckin' weird.

And Zelda is the physical center of the universe, or at least that's what she thinks. --Aurora 06:47, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

I still don't understand the metaphysics of a metaphysical center. Is there a metaphysical edge, too? Wait... maybe mana flows out from the Source, and ends up in the PWINM, and that's why it's the center? Does that gel the two theories? --Xstryker 08:25, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Ok, here's the problem: you don't get to say "because I said so" when it comes to things which effect every writer and every character and every plot. That isn't how interactive stories work and it isn't how Kupopolis works. And if it used to work that way, it doesn't anymore.

The point is that there ARE no right or wrong answers to metaphysical/philosophical question. In the real world, because we can't know the answers. In the kupopoverse, because we all have a say in it, and quite often we all say something different.

I'm not trying to limit what you write, or what anyone writes. I am saying (and am also apparently being ignored) that when it comes to the cosmology of the web, this is a sandbox we all share, and we (try to) play nice in it.

And athiests aren't wrong, unless they deny the existence of the beings that were called "gods." Because they quite obviously exist. For the most part, to my understanding, most athiestic kupop characters believe that the beings called gods are just more powerful/more advanced/whatever beings, and that there was no intelligence which created the web.

We all have our own theories (or multiple theories, spread out over multiple cultures) on that sort of thing. And until we all sit down in powow and agree that the universe fell out of Spekkio's navel, or arrose spontaneously from mana, or was created by UL, none of them are right or wrong. --JD 10:35, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

p.s. I'm sorry if that came off as condascending, because that isn't my intention. I just feel like I've been saying the same thing, over and over again, and I'm getting tired of it. --JD 10:36, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Firstly, PWINM is Aurora's plot asset, so I think she does have some say over it. Tasnica affects almost every writer and every character and every plot because of how many people have Tasnican characters, and the Grand Army affects almost every writer and every character and every plot because of how freakin huge it is, but they're Travis' assets and if he decides to do something drastic with them, or make some sweeping statement about them that affects other plotlines or characters, I'm guessing there wouldn't be near as much of a clamor over it. There is no conflict to saying that PWINM is a metaphysical center, in my view. I don't know why this has become such a huge deal. My plotlines aren't affected by having that said and and taken as fact.

I do agree with Jerry's assessment of Kupopolis atheists. It is a bit different in our story universe; the phenomenon of atheism can be traced more to a disillusionment with the Gods rather than a disbelief in them.

And I also think that the idea should be kept in mind about the sandbox, and the idea that our theories are all communal ones. If it is said by some that PWINM is the metaphysical center of the universe, there must be room in-story for there to be a competing theory. For example, everyone agrees that it is silly to assume that everyone speaks "Common" just because they do, but not everyone agrees that it's because Torak invented the language. "Source" theory in no way competes with PWINM being the "center" of the metaphysical world. While Source might have metaphysical aspects to it, the theory which holds that it is a "center" of anything is a physical one, because mana is fact rather than fantasy in our universe and Dimensional Theory is a science rather than a philosophy. How's that for gellin'?

But seriously. Can we just get along and drop it? What we're quibbling over is really not all that big a deal. If I'm saying something like that, you know there has to be something to it. --Scen 11:43, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Well, I disagree (somewhat) with the tasnica and ga analogies (if only because Travis has worked so hard to make those available to the community, but that's neither here nor there) and agree with the Common analogy. I think it's different for travis to say "well the grand army drove back the dark gods and is now the largest armed force in the web" and me saying, "No matt the guardians did not evolve from winged apes, they are a result of ancient web supermigration like everyone else." Since one is a fact and the other is a theory.

But I really don't want to get into any more arguments about this as it's wasted enough time and energy already. And I agree with most of the rest of what you said. --JD 12:05, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

Yes, I think that's what I said above, immediately preceding the part about how drunk I was. But if people understand you better, that's fine. Because we are saying essentially the same thing. (olol spekkulating) --JD 18:52, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

I think that's a good sum up of it X. I wish things were so simple here that we could point to even two locations as the center of the Web )physical or not). It, like so many things in Kupop, is up to in and out of sotry debate, and not really worth any real concern or anything hurtful (though I didnt happen to notice any of that in this thread, personally). As often as "Kupopolis" the city is used, it's almost a null point. I just felt like the entry needed an update from the ON. Spoon 12:11, 2 October 2006 (CDT)